For my children and others—Vote Yes to Prop 8

While I believe some people are naturally attracted to others of the same gender, I hold to a traditional value that you shouldn’t have sex outside of marriage and that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I have lived up to this standard personally and I plan on teaching this value to my children. My personal code of conduct really is not the trend society teaches, and so teaching my children my value system will be an uphill battle. I will have to combat the sex education they receive in school and the peer influence as well. But if Prop 8 doesn’t pass, then homosexuality may be brought up as early as kindergarten. As hard to imagine as it is, this is true.

“Children in public schools will have to be taught that same-sex marriage is just as good as traditional marriage. The California Education Code (§51890) already requires that health education classes instruct children about marriage. Therefore, unless Proposition 8 passes, children will be taught that marriage is a relation between any two adults regardless of gender.” yesformarriage.com

We really don’t know all the ramifications that will come as a result of this ruling. Many people think by voting no to prop 8 they are just letting a gay or lesbian couple have the label of marriage. But they don’t think about all the things that this will impact. And for that matter, I don’t think we know. Hopefully we just won’t have to ever find out.

OK that is enough for today. Please vote Yes to Proposition 8 and spread the word on why!!

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54 Comments

  1. keltic said

    if Prop 8 is defeated, as it should be, perhaps the ramifications would be that SOCIETY, not just children, learns that a marriage is 2 adults in a loving, committed relationship.
    Society should EXPECT that people, regardless of orientation, commit to each other, honor that commitment, and declare it publicly by entering into the contract known as MARRIAGE.

    Here’s another bit of information for you: there are already thousands of married same-sex couples who live near you. There are thousands more committed couples who haven’t been able to affirm their love for each other in legal marriage, but have done so in religious ceremonies. We are already here, in your neighborhood. Voting yes on Prop 8 will not legislate away the reality of our lives.

  2. busywithconviction said

    I am very aware same-sex couples are around me. They are my friends, family and co-workers. I just don’t choose to agree with their lifestyle choice.

  3. keltic said

    If they are your friends, by all means, show them this blog and see if they are still your friends.

    what choice are you talking about? Which lifestyle are you referring to?

  4. Babs said

    Keltic, you are right. Proposition 8 is about what society will become. That is why both sides are fighting so hard. Both sides want society to change, they just want different outcomes.

  5. beetlebabee said

    So many of the gays I’ve spoken with have said that they want equality, that they’re unhappy because they aren’t equal. I think the word marriage is not going to make them happy if they’re not happy already.

    I’ve made enough mistakes in my life to know, that just because someone says what I’m doing is ok, it doesn’t make the guilt I feel go away. People have no effect on God’s laws. If it’s wrong now, it will still be wrong even if all the courts in the land say it’s not. Morality is not peer driven. Does the gay community believe their misery will be lifted if we’re all affirming their lifestyle by inclusion? The guilt will not go away, it will just spread as we include our children in the sphere of exposure. If you’re not happy now, changing the definition of marriage won’t make you happy either.

  6. Either I am a raving, angry, lunatic activist who is insane enough to be UN-ashamed and UN-apologetic as I demand civil marriage equality – OR – I am a man who simply knows I deserve equality.

    I AM equal. I know it. And I, along with many others, have decided to withhold all federal taxes until we have equality.

    Be adults. I cannot hold all of your hands as you grapple with your phobias, fears, and obsessions. We exist. Deal.

  7. Matt A. said

    Beetlebabee, let me disabuse you of the notion that The Gays are guilty. We have nothing to be guilty about.

    And we aren’t unhappy because we aren’t equal. We are equal. We’re unhappy (to put it mildly) because the US government treats us as if we’re less worthy of equal treatment.

    Finally, please define “lifestyle”. I see the word thrown around all the time and I’m still not sure what it means. And since I supposedly have The Gay Lifestyle, I figure I should know what I should be doing.

  8. Laura said

    I can understand why all of the homosexual posters here would want to have ownership both in private and public — of the symbolic institution of marriage. Many see it not only as the great equalizer and legitimizer of homosexuality in a hostile society but also as encapsulating the deep commitment they share with one another. I hope I get that and I don’t blame them for wanting it at all, bottom line is, it is dang hard to be gay and gay relationships can be both loving and fulfilling.

    But here is what concerns me deeply about legalizing gay marriage, it is that our society will no longer distinguish between taking a homosexual life path or a heterosexual one. Calling same sex partnerships marriages obscures what I think is an important distinction between the two — which is, in choosing a homosexual relationship, one is choosing a partnership that simply cannot result in being able to create another human life together.

    Perhaps that doesn’t mean much when your 15 and just hitting puberty but it does to many people later on in life.

    Then correspondingly, if one has already chosen a same gendered partnership — then there is yet another dilemma to be later on encountered — if ever and however you bring a child into the relationship, this child will either not have a mother (in the case of gays) or a father (in the case of lesbians) and surely this is another difficult concern and dilemma that shouldn’t be ignored.

    So one of the reasons I personally plan to vote YES on 8 is because, I want these two life paths to remain distinct because they are different and there are many of us whose sexuality is fluid enough to have both options to chose from. I think teens still developing their sexual identity should grow up in a society where these differences are clear.

    I’m all for rights, but as women fight for equal rights, we haven’t done so with the intent to be called men as the pinnacle of achieving our equality. Why should that be the case with homosexual partnerships wanting to be called marriages?

  9. keltic said

    Laura,

    You are woefully misinformed. I was very nearly taken in by your glowing words about gay relationships and your desire to see our commitments succeed.

    But then you show your true, uninformed, prejudiced opinions: You start talking about choice, and lifestyle, and lifepath (whatever that is) and you reveal that, deep down, all of this could be avoided if the gays would just “choose” to be straight. None, and I mean NOT ONE, of the respected major Medical, Psychological, and Psychiatric organizations believes that sexual orientation is a choice.

    As far as your idea that same-sex marriages should be banned because they can not biologically produce a child, then you must also support the prohibition of sterile individuals, sr. citizens, and others who can not possibly create a baby. If this is the purpose of marriage, then it would also be safe to say that married couples who do not produce offspring within a reasonable amount of time should have their marriage licenses revoked and their marriages anulled.

    Teenagers growing up in a society where the differences are clear? I’m one of those former teenagers who grew up in a society which made it very clear that being straight was expected and being gay was not normal. It screwed me up for a long time. Is that what you’re advocating here, let’s not let the kids know that being gay is natural?

  10. busywithconviction said

    Keltic,

    There is a rather large nature vs nature debate. Both sides have studies showing both sides are right. For me how or why someone is homosexual is not the current debate, but rather the issue of preserving traditional marriage. I have no doubt it is a challenge to grow up being gay in our society, but I still can’t see what same-sex couples will gain from have their unions being called marriage. I think Juliet in Romeo and Juliet put it right when she said, “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” I think this means: what matters is what something is, not what it is called. If you are in a committed relationship with a same-sex partner, it could be just as sweet being called marriage as a civil union.

    The last paragraph of Laura’s comment she says women fighting for rights didn’t do so to be called men. Please, fight for more same-sex rights, I likely will not stand in your way, but prop 8 does not impact the rights of gays and lesbians (family code section 297.5 in California says, gay or lesbian domestic partners “have the same rights, protections and benefits” as married spouses).

  11. keltic said

    Separate is not equal. -US Supreme Court, 1954

    and I do believe that you would indeed stand in the way of gay and lesbian citizens gaining their civil rights. You feel so strongly about it that you had to start this blog.

    The reason that a person is gay or lesbian is particularly important to the Prop 8 debate. If we believe that homosexuality is a chosen behavior (a favorite argument of the “yes on 8” crowd) then it is easy to see why gays and lesbians should not be allowed to marry. On the other hand, if we believe, as do the major Medical, Psychological, and Psychiatric associations, that homosexuality is a naturally occurring orientation, then we must decide, as a society, what is appropriate for such individuals who wish to commit to each other. It is to society’s benefit that individuals find a partner and commit to loving and caring for each other.

    If, as you are trying to convince me that calling my union a civil union, is just as sweet as marriage, why are you fighting so fiercely against gays and lesbians using that word to describe their love? Would you be willing to have the secular government declare that all unions, straight or gay, be called Civil Unions from now on? If it is as you say, I’m sure you won’t mind the change.

  12. busywithconviction said

    keltic
    The parallel to segregation is getting old. Maybe this video will help you see my side of things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsc7fCgE30A I did feel compelled to start a blog because of my feelings about Prop 8, but I didn’t do it to fight against gays and lesbians rather to help educate those who haven’t decided which way to vote. There are lots of lies out there and I want to help people see the truth.
    I haven’t asked each of my homosexual friends, family and acquaintance if the chose to be gay/lesbian or not. But the ones I have had a conversations along those lines have given me reason to believe that there is truth to both nurture and nature argument. (If I run out of things to post about later I may elaborate more about why I think that.) So I guess I don’t fall into the you chose to be gay camp. Please commit to someone in a loving relationship, just don’t call it marriage. And there are bigger reasons then equality here. If proposition 8 fails it will impact many facets of our society. A very big one is our children. Maybe you don’t see that as a problem, but I do. Beetlebabee does an excellent job and summing up the research done in France on the topic. I encourage you to look at it. http://beetlebabee.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/childrens-rights-before-adult-preferences/

  13. keltic said

    busywithconviction,

    Why is it that you, other prop 8 supporters, and anti-gay bloggers in general, never respond to the questions put to you? You simply continue with your talking points.

    so let’s try again:

    Have you shown this blog to your gay and lesbian friends?

    regarding lifestyle choice (from our early exchanges in comments) what choice are you talking about? You’ve recently said you don’t believe it’s a choice. May I ask you to clarify your statements?

    If “marriage” is just a word, and “Civil Unions” should be just as satisfactory to gay and lesbian couples, would you be willing to have the government call all such unions “Civil Unions” and totally get out of the “marriage” business, leaving that to religious organizations?

    If this is all about the children, are you in favor of banning sr. citizens from marrying? what about infertile individuals? What about marriages that do not produce children within a reasonable amount of time?

    YOU HAVEN’T ANSWERED THESE QUESTIONS!

  14. Laura said

    Some Facts

    *From all the available research thus far, having same sex attraction is not a concious choice

    On the other hand, Homosexual Behavior is a choice — if our behavior isn’t a choice, we’re all in big big trouble.

    Some people through thier choices and perhaps therapuetic assistance report eventually being able to change thier sexual orientation — while others report a lack of success at such an endeaver. This is taboo research in psycology because of its political explosiveness — can anyone say Spitzer?

    *Sexual orientation is not simply a rigid two catagory either or phenomenon — but rather a continuum with people all over the spectrum particularly when it comes to female sexuality — remember regardless of sexual orientation — male v. female sexual response/ what is likely to initiate sexual arousal is very different.

    Ex. In one study, 56% of women reported having a same gender fantasy at one time or another. In another longnitudinal study over the course of 2 yrs, 1/4 of Lesbians had sought out sexual contact with men.

    *As any biological anthropologist will be quick to tell you, Race &/or Ethnicity is merely a sociological construct — …. while sex as a catagory ie. male or female is an obvious and indisputable biological reality

    I think these are all important facts to keep in mind if we’re going to discuss this.

  15. Laura said

    As to sterile hetero couples : such couples remain able through adoption to aviod the important concern I initially raised — they are in fact able to provide both a mother and a father to children who need them. In so closely approximating the ideal for children, they also keep the symbolic importance of marriage intact as opposed to undermining it.

  16. busywithconviction said

    Keltic
    I didn’t answer ALL of your questions, mostly because of time. But I will make sure to address all your points here in these comment. The same could be said about your camp. You and other no to prop 8 bloggers pick some questions to answer and some not, or you pick your favorite talking points and bring them up again and again.

    Not surprisingly I haven’t show this blog to my homosexual friends. And I likely will not do so either. But I have talked with one of them over the past few weeks trying to understand better where they are coming from. I am blogging to help educate the uninformed, and those trying to learn about both sides of the issue. I get the impression you feel informed about the issue—you are not my target audience. But that is not to discourage you from commenting. I think your comments help make a more valuable blog.

    When I refer to life-style choice I am referring to anyone who act out on their homosexual desires. Whether it is dating, sleeping with, co-habitation with people of the same sex….anything along those lines. For many people sexuality is a fluid thing. As I mentioned before it is my opinion that the nurture and nature camps both have some truth to their argument. I don’t think we really understand what causes someone to be homosexual. So it is not a question (for me) that you choose to be gay or you were wired that way, but the choice comes when you choose to act on those preferences.

    Should “marriage” just be a religious thing? That would possible simplify things, but I don’t think the better part of society is ready for that change. I personally have mixed feelings about having “marriage” only be a religious thing. I think some of the same issues, I feel strongly about, raised by allowing same-sex marriage may arise. I would have to think more about this idea.

    When I said it was about our children I wasn’t referring to the ability of having children, but rather to protect them. Wither people can or can’t have children or do or don’t is not what makes someone married.

  17. busywithconviction said

    Laura,
    Those were some very interesting facts. I have a related post forming in my mind, that if I find time before the election hope to write. I would love to read some of those studies you sited in more detail.

  18. keltic said

    Your argument sounds suspiciously religious in nature when you say that having a homosexual orientation is not bad, but homosexual behavior is bad. Why should a person with a natural attraction to someone of the same gender act contrary to that orientation? NOTE: do not answer this question with the pedophilia argument; children can not make rational decisions about having sex with adults. Pedophilia is ALWAYS wrong. It sounds as though you would require all gay and lesbian people to “change” and live their lives as straight people. many have tried, some have died trying.

    Please. show this blog to your gay and lesbian friends. If you are so concerned about their well-being, why write to this virtual audience when you can rescue your friends in real time?

  19. Matt A. said

    I don’t think we really understand what causes someone to be homosexual.

    Sure we do. God causes someone to be homosexual.

    As for the rest of it, you (and Laura) seem to be saying that people can be gay as long as they don’t act gay. This, of course, is patently ridiculous and requires that people internalize your hatred of them (and it is hatred). All of which is beside the point anyway, when we’re talking about the legal ability for two adults to co-sign a legal contract in the civil arena.

    As for not showing this blog to your fictional gay friends, color me not at all surprised.

    Laura,

    *So-called therapy to effect such a change is abusive because it presumes to fix something that isn’t broken and uses shame and self-hatred to give the appearance of such a change.

    *I don’t get your point on the second bullet.

    *You’re confusing gender with sexual preference. They are not the same thing.

    Finally, according to your side, ‘close approximation’ isn’t good enough. I’d certainly disagree, but IF the main purpose of marriage is procreation, then failure to procreate should remove the right to marry. Adoption is another subject altogether, and offering a (again, according to your side) dysfunctional home environment such as a set of parental figures who cannot perform one of the main functions of a married couple would be tantamount to abuse.

  20. busywithconviction said

    Does my argument sound religious, so what. No religious organization told me that is how it works. It is what I have come up with on my own, based on my own experiences. I don’t expect you or others to live up to the same value system I have. I am simple explaining where I stand. Prop 8 is not about whither or not gays can sleep together. It is about allowing gays to have the title of marriage rather than civil unions. And I don’t believe they should get that title. The ramifications are significant as I have noted in many of my other posts.

    And just for the record. I don’t hate gays.

  21. keltic said

    If you don’t expect others to live up to the same value system you have, why force it on them by supporting Prop 8? So, your actions indicate that you would indeed expect others to live up to your value system, and not only live up to it, but you would force it on others through the legal system.

    Your statement: Prop 8 is not about whither or not gays can sleep together. It is about allowing gays to have the title of marriage rather than civil unions. And I don’t believe they should get that title.

    This indicates that for you, it is all about what gay and lesbian people “do” and not about who we really are. For someone who claims they don’t “hate” gays, your actions/statements indicate otherwise. You certainly imply that your heterosexuality is superior to being gay or lesbian, and as such, we don’t deserve the same CIVIL benefits you do.

  22. busywithconviction said

    Prop 8 doesn’t say anywhere that gays shouldn’t be gay. I am not forcing a heterosexual lifestyle on you or others by supporting prop 8. I simple see the ramifications (what kids will be taught in schools) and I don’t like those changes—neither did France. Check out my post on France for more details. If you feel hated I am sorry, that is not what I am trying to imply. I do think what you do impacts who you are. But being gay (and acting out on it) doesn’t make you a bad person. Question my sincerity? I have a gay cousin, who I think highly of. (See related post, “My amazing gay cousin”.)
    What do you see will be gained by allowing same sex marriage in California? And don’t tell me it is about rights you already have rights in California. It is a title you gain and that is it.

  23. Matt A. said

    What do you see will be gained by allowing same sex marriage in California?

    Some measure of equal treatment under the law.

    What would children be taught in school? That we exist? That we have decades-long relationships and loving, healthy families?

    It’s so weird. I’d imagine this must be what it felt like to talk to people in 1954 Topeka.

  24. Laura said

    Let me now further explain my bullet points as they apply to the topic of discussion and what’s been said so far:

    “*From all the available research thus far, having same sex attraction is not a concious choice
    On the other hand, Homosexual Behavior is a choice — if our behavior isn’t a choice, we’re all in big big trouble.
    Some people through thier choices and perhaps therapuetic assistance report eventually being able to change thier sexual orientation — while others report a lack of success at such an endeaver. This is taboo research in psycology because of its political explosiveness — can anyone say Spitzer?”

    Objections I hear to reparative therapies often sound like Matt’s — “So-called therapy to effect such a change is abusive because it presumes to fix something that isn’t broken and uses shame and self-hatred to give the appearance of such a change.”

    As someone with a background in cognitive therapy, rule # 1 is that therapuetic goals are client directed — meaning individuals are self directed in chosing the changes they want to make. Sound reparative therapies also use this approach which is a huge improvement of some of the older approaches Matt references ie. shame , self hatred and the like of which I too would not agree with.

    Along the same lines, Homosexuals should have the right to seek such change if they so desire with the understanding that it may not be effective which is again part of the improved modern approach. Many report being grateful and happier in undertaking this endeaver. Gender affirmative therapy, cognitive therapy and grief work are also reported to be effective components of reparative therapies.

    I am personally acqauinted with 3 individuals who have been able to make successful transitions into heterosexual relationships — each is happily married raising families now.

    Particulary because twin studies have ruled out a genetic cause for homosexuality and the most recent 2008 APA brochure on the topic says ” “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles…”

    I am a strong advocate of continued research of reparitive therapies and thier availability for such who would like to undertake them. Anyone or any organization blocking are banning such individuals from doing so in the name of progress for gay rights is ironically hypocritical to me.

  25. Laura said

    Bullet Point #2:
    “*Sexual orientation is not simply a rigid two catagory either or phenomenon — but rather a continuum with people all over the spectrum particularly when it comes to female sexuality — remember regardless of sexual orientation — male v. female sexual response/ what is likely to initiate sexual arousal is very different.

    Ex. In one study, 56% of women reported having a same gender fantasy at one time or another. In another longnitudinal study over the course of 2 yrs, 1/4 of Lesbians had sought out sexual contact with men. ”

    Understanding and taking into account that sexuality occurs on a continuum and that for many, thier sexuality doesn’t necesarily limit them to a rigid single sexual orientation I think highlights why parents have a right to be concerned about what kind of sexual behavior society endorses and how this might impact the choices thier children make — children and teens do begin to make choices that shape thier sexual identity which again is one reason why I will vote YES on Prop 8 — I want traditional marriage and same sex partnerships to remain distinct because they are different and there are many of us whose sexuality is fluid enough to have both options to chose from. Again, I think teens still developing their sexual identity should grow up in a society where these differences are clear.

  26. Laura said

    Finally to my last bullet point
    *As any biological anthropologist will be quick to tell you, Race &/or Ethnicity is merely a sociological construct — …. while sex as a catagory ie. male or female is an obvious and indisputable biological reality”

    Most arguments trying to use black civil rights as a comparison to gay rights don’t take these factual differences into account. What it means is that biologically speaking of the human species, race is a myth, hence a good reason not to use it as reason alone to ever differentiate or discriminate between individuals.

    On the other hand, one’s sex is a biological reality and among other things, it is particularly significant to reproduction. Hence, the issue of differentiating between same sex couples and heterosexual couples (calling them domestic partnerships or civil unions as opposed to calling them marriage) comparison to Black civil rights is one I reject outright.

    Once again, I’m all for rights, but as women fight for equal rights, we haven’t done so with the intent to be called men as the pinnacle of achieving our equality. Why should that be the case with homosexual partnerships wanting to be called marriages?

  27. busywithconviction said

    Matt
    (I wish I knew how you do that really cool quote then…but blogging is a new thing for me so…)

    “Some measure of equal treatment under the law.”

    You already have the same rights as married couple. Gay or lesbian domestic partners have the same rights protections and benefits as married spouses (family code section 297.5). I see the gay rights movement is seeking social acceptance.

    I would rather have my kids taught about same-sex attraction in the home rather then in school.

  28. Matt A. said

    You’ve moved the goal posts, but I’ll answer anyway. Then I’ll get back to the issue at hand.

    As someone with a background in cognitive therapy, rule # 1 is that therapuetic goals are client directed — meaning individuals are self directed in chosing the changes they want to make.

    So if I went to a therapist and said, “I’m left-handed, but I want you to make me right-handed,” the therapist would agree so to do? Sorry, no. If the changes that the person wants to make are harmful, I would expect any licensed clinician or therapist to refuse. “First, do no harm.”

    And by the way, I know of NO ex-gay program that claims to change sexual proclivities. They just teach someone to act more masculine or feminine, and how to suppress their normal, natural feelings.

    What it means is that biologically speaking of the human species, race is a myth…

    I don’t know what data you’re looking at, but race is a reality. Most notably, skeletal structures differ between the Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid races. There are also changes in genetic codes that break the races down further.

    Nationality is a construct and racial superiority is a myth, but race most certainly exists.

    children and teens do begin to make choices that shape thier sexual identity

    I’ll stop you there and return to the basic fact that people don’t choose their sexual identity. At no time did I choose to be gay. At no time did you choose to be straight. Nothing can be modeled by society that would alter a child’s sexual identity. We can only model how someone reacts to his/her sexual identity.

    You’re suggesting by your arguments that we teach kids that being LGBT is something to be ashamed of and should teach them that people who are LGBT are sick or broken enough that we need to teach them how to hide.

    On the other hand, one’s sex is a biological reality and among other things, it is particularly significant to reproduction. Hence, the issue of differentiating between same sex couples and heterosexual couples (calling them domestic partnerships or civil unions as opposed to calling them marriage) comparison to Black civil rights is one I reject outright.

    I don’t care if you reject it or not. That doesn’t change the FACT of correlation recognized by many of the institutions and individuals connected with the civil rights movement.

    None of which has anything to do with the issue of marriage equality. Nice job moving the goalposts, but I’ll return to the actual question at hand in another comment.

  29. Matt A. said

    On the other hand, one’s sex is a biological reality and among other things, it is particularly significant to reproduction. Hence, the issue of differentiating between same sex couples and heterosexual couples (calling them domestic partnerships or civil unions as opposed to calling them marriage) comparison to Black civil rights is one I reject outright.

    Again, reproduction is not a requirement for marriage, not in the current American context. We know this because we don’t require fertility tests that demonstrate the fertility of both parties before an official signs a marriage certificate, nor do we require production of a child within a period of time after marriage, nor do we forbid women past the age of child bearing from getting married.

    You already have the same rights as married couple. Gay or lesbian domestic partners have the same rights protections and benefits as married spouses (family code section 297.5). I see the gay rights movement is seeking social acceptance.

    Separate but equal is not good enough. That’s what SCOTUS ruled 52 years ago. The fact that we’re talking about a different minority is irrelevant.

    I would rather have my kids taught about same-sex attraction in the home rather then in school.

    Your use of the term “same-sex attraction” gives away your bias, and I still don’t know what teaching you’re talking about.

    The bottom line is that bias against the LGBTs in society is based on the assumption that we are inherently dangerous to society and ourselves. It’s been shown by study after study that this assumption is erroneous and outmoded. The fact that most religions haven’t caught up is not surprising (and I say that as a Christian), but neither is it relevant.

    Since we know that there is no inherent danger presented by LGBTs there is no longer any reason other than ignorance and bigotry for the US Government to deny equal rights, including equality in marriage, to LGBTs. And we don’t make decisions of governance based on ignorance and bigotry.

    In other words, “We The People” includes us.

  30. Laura said

    Don’t have time to respond this morning except to throw out fanother relevant fact to the discussion which I’ll elaborate on later.

    In a 1995 survey in the popular gay magazine “The Advocate,” only 50% of lesbians thought they were born gay; the remainder thought that childhood experiences and/or choice accounted for their sexual orientation.

  31. Laura said

    Actually Matt, you can thank Keltic for “moving the goal posts”

    “Separate is not equal. -US Supreme Court, 1954” Keltic

    “The reason that a person is gay or lesbian is particularly important to the Prop 8 debate. If we believe that homosexuality is a chosen behavior (a favorite argument of the “yes on 8″ crowd) then it is easy to see why gays and lesbians should not be allowed to marry.” Keltic

  32. Laura said

    Matt said” So if I went to a therapist and said, “I’m left-handed, but I want you to make me right-handed,” the therapist would agree so to do? Sorry, no. If the changes that the person wants to make are harmful, I would expect any licensed clinician or therapist to refuse. “First, do no harm.” And by the way, I know of NO ex-gay program that claims to change sexual proclivities. They just teach someone to act more masculine or feminine, and how to suppress their normal, natural feelings. ”

    Actually a physical therapist which is who one would approach with that kind of request would not have any ethical problem in helping someone who is left handed learn to also fully use thier right hand and therefore become ambidextrious — and there’s quite an obvious advantage to becoming ambidextrious particularly in this prodominantley right handed world. The same could also be said of reparitive therapies — they seek to help someone who is gay develop opposite gender attraction and therefore then be considered bisexual — this also has an obvious advantage in enabling the person to being able to have children with a person they love and raise them with both a mother and a father. Affirming and fostering a homosexual’s masculinity in males and feminitity in females as well as developing techniques to manage unwanted same gendered thoughts and feelings are reportedly more effective components in assisting people to develop an opposite sex orientation than directly seeking that change in and of itself, hence it appears that is why they are used.

  33. Laura said

    Again, What it means is that biologically speaking of the human species, race is a myth…

    Matt go ask 10 biologists if this is a true or false statement and then we can come back to it.

  34. Matt A. said

    Nice deflection.

  35. busywithconviction said

    Keltic accused me of back peddling. To set the record strait:
    I feel like you are asking me and the whole of society to agree with you and say that same-gender sexual relationships are OK. Be like sheep and all move together…(a heard of sheep follows the leader, even if it is off a cliff.)…be uniform. This is something I can’t give you. But I can respect your agency to make your own choices in your life, regardless of whether I believe they’re right or wrong.

    You do have a choice to go against your sexuality and be happy. We have that freedom. To say you do not have a choice or you are not being who you really are is support the idea that someone can be violent if they have a natural disposition to be violent.

    I haven’t done the research, but from conversations I have had with gay and lesbians I have heard both sides. Since Laura is supporting my side I will give you a quick antidote that supports her point.
    My male friend was in a heterosexual relationship for a few years. One night he “fools around” with one of his buddies and realizes he likes that camp better. He breaks up with his current girl friend and has been in gay relationships ever since. This friends sexuality was obviously fluid enough that both sides did something for him physically. He did “choose” to be gay, and he is happy. But he would have been happy as a heterosexual as well.

    This leads back to the children point made earlier. Adolescence are discovering their sexuality. I am appalled with the idea that schools will teach about homosexuality and because of association imply that you choose which gender you want to be attracted to. And no this doesn’t imply I think homosexuals are bad people, but it does say I think that same-gender sexual relationships are.

    Can I really be a friend to someone who is in a same-sex relationships? I can be their friends, it is called tolerance. Orson Scott Card said, “It makes me sad when people are so intolerant that they cannot bear to be friends with anyone who disapproves of some action or opinion of theirs. But I believe that if we could only be friends with people who never disapprove of something we do, we will end up with “friends” who either don’t know us very well, or don’t care about us very much.” I echo these sentiments. You are not seeking tolerance you are seeking uniformity. Regardless of whether prop 8 passes I will still teach my children about sexuality, the whole spectrum. But accompanied with that I will also teach them a high moral standard.
    I don’t think people in same sex relationship are dangerous, just not moral is this area of their lives.

  36. Laura said

    Moderator — please approve this post as opposed to the former which has grammatic errors. thanks

    Matt I can’t explain anymore clearly that biologically, race means nothing while sex indicates important determinants about reproduction. You want to ignore that fine. As you have stated others ignore those differences too. For me and others, this comparing of apples and oranges (hetero v homo couples) is enough to take a more nuanced look at how we make public policy surrounding same gendered partnerships because at the end of the day the most important concern in this debate is the Big C — Children whose entitlement to be raised with both a mother and a father is more important than homosexual adults demands that they are entitled to gay marriage. I would much rather foster a society to support the former rather than the latter.

    The research indicating the benefits and importance of mothers and fathers in stable hetero marriages has long been established.

    The research trying to support homosexual parenting as being equal to the aforementioned ideal is still in its infancy with considerable information lacking. For example, virtually void from this research are gay male couples raising children — they mostly focus soley on lesbians. Futhermore, there have been no longnitudinal studies on children of gay parents that follow them from childhood to adolescence into adulthood. Moreover, much of what we do have in this research merely compares lesbians (who concieved previously in a hetero relationship) with single hetero mothers. That’s flawed too because we should be comparing the alternative with the ideal not another known less than ideal alternative.
    I’m not willing to experiment with children and niether was France after setting up a research panal to inquire about legalizing gay marriage in thier country. They decided to put childrens rights above adults — homosexuals are a vulnerable population but children are a more vulnerable population.

  37. Laura said

    PS

    Differences and variations among minorities are relevant to making sound public policy

    ex. women and the draft

    and

    native americans and soveriegnty

  38. busywithconviction said

    Keltic, If you can keep your comments away from a derogatory personal attacking nature I would be happy to post them.

  39. keltic said

    If you delete the comments, you can’t ethically respond to them.

  40. keltic said

    and I’ll try it to see if it’s just one line that you found offensive:

    my, you do a lot of back-pedalling, don’t you?

    you’ve already stated that being gay is a choice, and you’ve stated that it isn’t.

    you’ve stated that you have gay friends, but you aren’t brave enough to show them this blog.

    you’ve stated that being gay is not bad, but acting on it is, and now you’ve changed your mind on that one.

    all of these are taken from your blog entry and statements you’ve made in comments.

  41. Matt A. said

    Actually a physical therapist which is who one would approach with that kind of request would not have any ethical problem in helping someone who is left handed learn to also fully use thier right hand and therefore become ambidextrious — and there’s quite an obvious advantage to becoming ambidextrious particularly in this prodominantley right handed world.

    I don’t even know what to say to that. First of all, ex-gay groups don’t want to make people sexually ambidextrous, they want to make people straight, or at least act that way. The goal isn’t an additional state, it’s a replacement state. This is harmful. The American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, National Association of Social Workers, American Counseling Association, and many others have all SOUNDLY DECRIED ex-gay groups as being harmful and dangerous.

    The fact that you’re so willing to go through the mental gymnastics to withhold people’s rights and declare them broken is astonishing.

  42. busywithconviction said

    My October 29, 2008 @ 9:32 pm comments would be my response to Keltic.

    As a general rule many of your comments have a derogatory tone about them, as if you are superior to me in some way. Cutting and pasting my comments together allows you to manipulate what I have said, but doesn’t portray them correctly.

  43. keltic said

    I’m sorry if you think this gay guy is getting all uppity.

    My cutting and pasting of your comments is simply a way of asking you to clarify your positions. Help me understand why you think being gay is a choice, but it isn’t. Help me understand why you feel so strongly against same-sex marriages, yet you wouldn’t show this blog, and your stated opinions here to your gay friends. Please tell me how you can state that being gay isn’t bad, but acting on it is, and then state that neither of them are a bad thing.

    The unfortunate thing about blogging is that if you put an idea out there, anyone can respond. If you think I’ve been particularly impolite in my responses, I invite you to go to my blog and look at the comments to http://keltic.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/hey-hatas-its-time-to-walk-the-talk/ Not only do I view it as a freedom of speech issue, it’s also about being tough enough to take some criticism, good or bad.

  44. busywithconviction said

    Keltic–I did read your post and some of the comments. Unfortunately, people have not been nice to you, but you also write in a tone on your blog that encourages those types of comments. It is not like your post is particularly kind to others either. I think I have posted comments that are critical to me and my ideas but I don’t have to put up with people belittling me repeatedly on my own blog. Criticize the ideas not the people.

    As for how I can say being gay isn’t bad, but acting out on those desires (same-sex sexual relationships) are bad–I don’t know how to word it differently then I already have. I have just read over all my comments and can’t find where I said neither of them are a bad thing. If I implied that somewhere that wasn’t what I was trying to say.

    To Keltic Matt and Laura–I feel like we could run in circles forever on this topic, and not convince each other that the other was right/wrong. I don’t see anything new is really being added. We have a had lots of tangents but bottom line I think preserving traditional marriage is a good thing for our children, because they are young and impressionable. I will continue to moderate your comments, but I think it is time we all move on.

  45. Laura said

    Matt said “The fact that you’re so willing to go through the mental gymnastics to withhold people’s rights and declare them broken is astonishing.”

    Homosexual couples already have the same rights as I do in CA which I support — no gymnastics here that’s my stance :).

    I’ve also never declared anyone broken — but again stated my personal stance, that homosexuals should have the right to seek out and utilize reparative therapies if they so choose — some people can change and are happier for it — are you going to stop them?

    Laura the Social Worker

  46. Laura said

    Matt also said “I don’t even know what to say to that. First of all, ex-gay groups don’t want to make people sexually ambidextrous, they want to make people straight, or at least act that way. The goal isn’t an additional state, it’s a replacement state.”

    Yeah, for some the ultimate goal/ideal would be a replacement state but as I tried to explain before — in sound reparative therapies, therapuetic goals vary among individuals and are self directed and may or may not have that end in mind initially or at all.

    Sexual ambidextriousness (I think we’ve invented a new term here) is a state of reality for anyone in transition as well as continues to be for many who ultimately have successful hetero relationships. For such, the task is then to manage sexual fantasies incongruant with one’s shared sexual relationship — which is a universal neccessity for any couple — gay or straight — who wants to maintain a healthy longterm commitment. IMHO, there’s nothing terribly unique about it but it appears that this is more difficult for men across the board (again gay or straight) than for women generally speaking.

  47. Matt A. said

    Homosexual couples already have the same rights as I do in CA

    It’s not “same”, or “separate but equal” that I’m interested, it’s “equal”. For the hundredth time, separate but equal is inherently unequal according to the US Constitution.

    And even if I accept the term “same”, it’s just flat out not true.

    http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2008/10/video-yes-anti.html

    “But in addition to marriage being the universally recognized vehicle for state-recognized legal commitment, returning marriage to a DP system would run the risk of returning gay couples to a state of non-parity in areas like: out-of state recognition, medical decision-making (especially while traveling elsewhere), inheritance taxes, survivor benefits, family leave, spousal and child support, immigration, etc.”

  48. Matt A. said

    I’ve also never declared anyone broken — but again stated my personal stance, that homosexuals should have the right to seek out and utilize reparative therapies if they so choose — some people can change and are happier for it — are you going to stop them?

    Your argument requires one to think of gay relationships as disordered.

    And yes, I would stop someone who wants to cut off his legs because the nice lady says he’ll feel better for it. 100% of the time, yes I would stop that person.

  49. Laura said

    Matt said “Your argument requires one to think of gay relationships as disordered.”

    No, my argument allows for individual autonomy in decision making about ones PRIVITE intimate life and to me that is paramount.

    Matt also said “And yes, I would stop someone who wants to cut off his legs because the nice lady says he’ll feel better for it. 100% of the time, yes I would stop that person.”

    A dramatic and false analogy that simply continues to ignore that for many, “coming out” of homosexuality is empowering, enabling and quite simply the best series of decisions they feel they’ve ever made. Your analogy might hold true for how some feel but not all.

  50. Laura said

    Matt said “separate but equal is inherently unequal according to the US Constitution”

    Again,

    Differences and variations among minorities are relevant to making sound public policy

    ex. women and the draft

    and

    native americans and soveriegnty

    Furthermore, repeating a general principle over and over again does nothing to engage the actual issue. Polygamist’s could use the same argument to try to get the state to recognize thier marriages, but obviously that wouldn’t be enough to simply grant that recognition because there are idividual nuances and concerns for any group seeking a particular right that have to be assessed.

    As to any additional rights, such as those you’ve listed, they could potentially be bundled with civil unions as other rights currently are and as they have been in France and the UK. The title of marriage simply isn’t the only route.

  51. What about the children in California?
    Is Proposition 8 child abuse?
    Do children’s mental and emotional well-being matter?

    In California, imagine how SAFE the young children of gay or lesbian parents are feeling during this PROPOSITION 8 INSANITY.

    Would children feel SAFE if they knew other families were voting, for God’s sake, VOTING on whether their parents deserved the right to be married and treated fairly in society?

    How SAFE would a boy feel knowing some parents and teachers do not believe his own family is the same as their families?

    How SAFE would a girl feel knowing some children do not believe her own family deserves “the same” as their families?

    Now even young children ECHO this intolerance on the playground, thanks to their parents hateful words and ideas. How sick for the children of the YES ON PROP 8 crowd to feel more deserving than other children and their parents! Many children already know and love their gay uncles, lesbian grandmothers, and other FAMILY MEMBERS who are LGBTI, so we have created a hideous world with PROPOSITION 8 and other amendments like it in the U.S. Children are living in a world where they are witnessing adults spending MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars FOR or AGAINST their FAMILY.

    Children deserve to grow up in a world where they BELONG.

    Children deserve to grow up feeling SAFE.

    How sick of a society that we ALLOW family rights to be VOTED ON?

    Straight and gay children are being raised by straight and gay parents, but the government forgot that we are ALL interconnected in our families and in society. So now PROPOSITION 8 has brought children into this culture war, a war based on the assumption that some families deserve more legal rights and protections than other families in times of sickness, death, and divorce [for starters]. SICK.

  52. busywithconviction said

    Regardless of what happens on Tuesday I will still teach my children to be kind to all people regardless of who their parents are or what choices people make. It is kind of like smoking. I will teach my children they shouldn’t smoke, but that people who smoke are not bad. Treating others with respect and kindness is not only the expectations I place on my children but also for myself. I have the same hope for all of society. I think it must be hard to grow up gay in our society. It would also be hard to be the child of a gay couple. I don’t think the failure of Prop 8 would change that. Maybe time would? I guess we will all get to wait and see.

  53. Laura said

    John,

    I’m curious — you could make the exact same arguments for polygamist families — do you?

  54. lahona said

    Friends, be aware that there are persecutions starting up using the donor lists. Your voices in support of these targets is helpful. We shouldn’t let our p8 friends and donors twist in the wind alone. This man stood up for his personal beliefs on family and lost his job this morning because of it.

    http://beetlebabee.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/persecution-continues-martyrs-for-prop-8/

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